Approaching the quarter million mark...

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Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:57 pm

As title states, my '99 Fiat Coupe 20VT's milage is fast approaching 250,000km! Been my daily drive for 2 years now and never faced any major issues. I'd be lying if I said there's never been minor ones. But this thread isn't about that.

I've heard nothing but good things about how the previous owner took care of the car. Seeing that the car's in good shape, I'm not surprised. That said, I don't really know the service history. (It would be great if romeojay would contribute to this discussion ;) )

I'm due for a timing belt change real soon. The engine, as far as I can tell, is healthy apart from dark smoke when accelerating hard (turbo issue?) and something I noticed just now. Haven't driven since last night and noticed oily vapor spurting out of exhaust. See photo below. After a few revs, no more.
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I am a bit skeptical with the high milage. I know many would say if it aint broke, don't fix it. But I was wondering if I should do a top overhaul together with the belt change as preventive maintenance? Apart from the turbo & silicone hoses I intend to order is there anything else I should look into or change while the mechs are going at it? I'd like, if possible to do everything one-shot.

Comments and opinions very much appreciated. Here's to 500,000km! Cheers!
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby invisibleghost » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:00 pm

the oil vapor is water mix with dirt. u have it in morning, rt. no biggie
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby Redd » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:09 pm

if the engine is not consuming excessively high amounts of oil, it doesnt need an overhaul. this aint a japanese engine, quarter of a mil clicks is not surprising. :)

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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby nahar » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:19 pm

no worries.... the engine will run string till 400k km...
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby mic84 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:39 pm

250k..impressive i must say =D>
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby desin » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:20 pm

~wow...! mine almost 160k, and ya... still healthy ;)
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby maxcobmara » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:27 pm

according to planned maintenance requirements a top overhaul should be performed every 160kKM and full overhaul every 320kKM; for peak performance of course
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby gtfan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:27 pm

A compression test also will be good. Of course when you compare to zainframe recent compression reading (just overhaul), you will be damn jealous of his engine compression.

If got moolah, no harm doing a overhaul just to make sure everything is tight again.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby desin » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:30 pm

eem... talking about overhaul.. what consists of top-overhaul? valve? just valve check? replace piston ring<this is NOT top-overhaul rite?>???
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby DeaDLocK » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:40 pm

Top end overhaul is just that: an overhaul of the top-end of the engine. Basically, checking/refurbing/replacing valves, cylinders and pistons (and maybe cams + rarely conrods) as necessary.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:50 pm

Redd wrote:if the engine is not consuming excessively high amounts of oil, it doesnt need an overhaul.

• As a benchmark, two 4L Castrol Edge Sport 10w-60 lasts me around 7,000 clicks. Is that okay?

invisibleghost wrote:the oil vapor is water mix with dirt. u have it in morning, rt. no biggie

• Ok. Did some googling. No biggie. Stock tip seems to be rusting up though. :?

maxcobmara wrote:according to planned maintenance requirements a top overhaul should be performed every 160kKM and full overhaul every 320kKM; for peak performance of course

• Not sure if it was done at 160k. Might have to pm romeojay to find out. Thanks for the info max. I missed that bit in the manual.

So.....

gtfan wrote:If got moolah, no harm doing a overhaul just to make sure everything is tight again.

• Let's discuss what sort of potential costs will go into doing this. Hopefully those who have done can share.

DeaDLocK wrote:Top end overhaul is just that: an overhaul of the top-end of the engine. Basically, checking/refurbing/replacing valves, cylinders and pistons (and maybe cams + rarely conrods) as necessary.

• And also opportunity to repaint engine cover. :mrgreen:

Also what kind of average downtime are we looking at? Judging from the queue at most of the reputable mechs, days, weeks, even month(s)?
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby gtfan » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:39 am

Overhaul.....most mechanic can finish the job within the week.

Just get all the parts ready instead of opening up the engine, then only source for part, then it will be major downtime if there's unavailability of part.

Better to do together with timing belt change since the engine is going to be dismantle.

Parts you are looking ..... overhaul set, timing belt kits, water pump, conrod bearings, journal bearings, piston rings...if got budget, some nice forged piston set + forged conrod from the UK, 500hp also no issue that if you can get proper tuning and pls not from our malaysia sunway boys.

I am slowly collecting my parts now as i might intend to do a full overhaul during my next timing belt change. Labour itself is already in the region of rm1.5k based on worldtech pricing. As for the parts....rm3k kto 4k depends where you source. Stupid torino list price for piston ring set is at rm2.8k during the last carnival we were there :shock: I remember last time it was priced below rm1k. Kanasai.

So, you are looking at budget of about rm5k-6k.

Btw, i am still debating on this....Alternatives Auto UK have a brand new 20vt engine going for 2k pounds. Not sure whether we need AP to import this engine. Some says no need some say yes.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby nahar » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:03 pm

new engine = new AP for the engine = pay tax
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby desin » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:08 pm

Btw, i am still debating on this....Alternatives Auto UK have a brand new 20vt engine going for 2k pounds. Not sure whether we need AP to import this engine. Some says no need some say yes.

what?!?!?!?!? Still got new Engine????? btw, why u wanna do the overhaul? so kian-su? compression test 1st!!!! if no compression loss, why wanna do overhaul? [too much] money dunno where to spend??
i've seen merc diesel ran for 7xxk-km without overhaul!!! gotta thanks to current sync engine oil... anyway, compression test 1st!!!! if the engine didn't give u problem, why wanna do tis and that?
normal symptom that required to overhaul is, too much of smoke come out from exhaust, engine consume too much engine oil. if no such sympton, why wanna consider?
power loss could be cam & valves, anyway, compression test will able to tell it all.
power loss could be old sensors giving wrong value too right???
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby pistole » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:51 pm

- top end over haul is just the head lar ...

- if you're talking about pistons , rings , etc , that's complete strip down already.

.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby zoakies » Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:33 pm

Congratulation on your coupe marking at 250,000km.....

Mine still got another 50,000km to go... :|
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby gtfan » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:22 pm

Yes, alternatives auto still have a few brand new 20vt engines. Maybe they lelong buy from fiat dealer.

Hmm, can't we buy the engine and called it used engine ? Used engine don't need AP right ?
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:42 pm

pistole wrote:- top end over haul is just the head lar ...


• Adoi.. saya konfius oledi... So what parts are we looking at again?
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby pistole » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:51 pm

- usually , top-end OH refers to new valves (maybe) , reseating of the valves (always) , new valve guides (maybe) , new valve seals (always) , the usual gaskets (always) , new oil-seals for the camshafts (always) , cleaning the combustion chamber - decoke (always) , new cambelt (maybe) , new cambelt tensioner/bearings (maybe).

- basically everything above the block.

.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby RASS » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:53 am

Yup bro,..if theres no problem with your engine like what Desin mentioned why wanna do even top overhaul? As long as your engine is not consuming heavily on engine oil and no power loss why bother doing top overhaul. If you wanna be sure then why not do a compression test first. ;)
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby Luigi96 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:49 am

gtfan wrote:Yes, alternatives auto still have a few brand new 20vt engines. Maybe they lelong buy from fiat dealer.

Hmm, can't we buy the engine and called it used engine ? Used engine don't need AP right ?

new engine have no number yet. That's what i did last time but not coupe engine la. So buy as parts and ask Ah Meng to ketok the same engine number as what is in yr coop now. No inspection, nothing...
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby nahar » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:06 pm

gtfan wrote:Yes, alternatives auto still have a few brand new 20vt engines. Maybe they lelong buy from fiat dealer.

Hmm, can't we buy the engine and called it used engine ? Used engine don't need AP right ?


try out and see... even used engine got AP.. as used engine comes with engine number and later need to register the with JPJ and they do require...... the two letter form... AP!! :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby gtfan » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:33 am

Think my wife going to kill me if she ever see an engine sitting in my storeroom....hahahaha....hmmm 8-)

She will says, might as well used the money to buy 60" lcd like datuk Zain....i hope he's still alive after this weekend :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby RASS » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:56 am

gtfan wrote:Think my wife going to kill me if she ever see an engine sitting in my storeroom....hahahaha....hmmm 8-)


engine sitting in store room still consider ok....if 'leng lui' sitting in store room thats trouble :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:30 pm

2000kms ago she reached the quarter mil...
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Image

Went for a health check and ran a dyno to see where it stood. Besides the Forge dump valve I installed, I had always thought the coupe was stock. What I found out was rather surprising and literally kept me up all night.
-
Image

I'm pleased with the power, but she's running like she wants a cover feature on Forbes magazine.

Had an exchange of notes with her previous owner and discovered that she's:

a) chipped
b) running a Walbro fuel pump
c) 2.5" exhaust
d) balanced cams

While she was in Torino, I was told all the juicy bits had been taken out. Right down to the turbo timer. So I assumed I was getting a stock car. Seems some were left behind. Those I listed particularly.

Now, in regards to (a) I never suspected it was chipped since I did have a peek in the ECU casing and saw a Bosch sticker in there. I earlier assumed the boost spikes were resulting from a knackered EBV. The Walbro, if paired to a stock chip probably shouldn't be over-fueling (right?). So maybe it's still using a yellowtaxi special (with a Bosch sticker??). Will have to ask him when/if I see him or if he bumps into this thread. What else could make it run rich like that? Lambda sensor was changed when I bought the car. Richer is obviously better than leaner. But I'd prefer a stable A/F ratio in the long run. Thoughts?

Referring to (b), I'm running on a stock muffler. Checked. Yup. It's welded to something larger in diameter. So, okay la. That saves me a trip to the custom exhaust guy. If all goes well that muffler will be replaced with a Supersprint next week.

Another thing observed during the dyno run, it lost power (20hp to be exact) during it's third run and was misfiring. Everything else was relatively similar to the first run. Took out plugs and they were looking like this:
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Image

They weren't that bad albeit very slight burns. Thomas said it might be losing power as the engine runs hot. So we switched to colder Iridium plugs and went for a few more runs. Same results as my posted dyno chart, but minus 20hp and minus the misfiring.

I'm not so much concerned about the power (238hp initial run vs 218hp consequent runs), but more on the A/F ratios and plugs (stock vs. Iridium), although it'd be good knowledge to know why I start off with a certain amount and then go downhill from there.

Somebody comfort me.

romeojay, thanks for entertaining my PMs. :thumbs:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby gtfan » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:55 pm

I think it's due to leaning....you can see your fuel curve above 5000rpm is going lean.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby Kelv27 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:33 pm

Nik, try swapping to a standard chip and see how the fueling goes. Let me know if you need one.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby invisibleghost » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:05 pm

careful if running too lean. might damage ur engine
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby raitag » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:20 pm

wow... max boost at 1.56bar... interesting chart... but as long as u r happy with her, everything should be fine... and is that stock plugs? where did u get those?? and get rid of the iridium plugs... tried it and the car jerks after using the plugs for a short while... go for platinum... there's a flat spot between 4000-4500 rpm... wonder why...

ognam, my 146 clocked 280,000km and was running strong... but consume lots of oil... i blame myself for that, drove from SG to Lumut with loose engine cap... by the time i got to lumut, it dropped off... but it still runs strongly for the next 5 years... hahahahahaha
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:05 pm

I'm happy with her. I just want to find out what's up with her. It's not running dangerously lean so that's fine.

If it is indeed a performance chip then 1.56 bar is understandable. If it's not then something's wrong. I actually want to bring it down. A boost controller might be in order. But then I don't want to lose throttle-boost control. Aiya pening. Will double check with yellowtaxi if he comes to TT tomorrow night. If it's not his chip in the car and indeed a stock one, might have to take up Kelv's offer to compare.

I got the stock plugs from MS Sprint last year. When/if the car starts jerking, I'll clean it up and put it back in. Seems like it's still in good shape. The flat spot is apparently because GT Auto's dyno machine can't read anything below 10 (according to Thomas). So it might actually be running way richer than shown on the chart. Noticed black smoke during dyno.

As for your sg lumut story, no comment. :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby kvinlim » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:18 am

wow, 250k! mine is only reaching 140k ... long way to go ...
who say italia car is not good? going to use this example to bang my friends
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby puchongbala » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:06 pm

=D> =D> =D>

500,000km?
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby kvinlim » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:49 pm

when i got my bella in 5-6 years old, it consumed oil as well, so need to top up from time to time ...
then i changed my engine and a total overhaul last year, it's tight without a single drop in engine oil ... better than virgin :mrgreen:
happy now, should be able to drive till 200,000km before selling it off for another higher power car =)
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby UlysseNuovo » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:57 am

Bro. If you are boosting 1.5 bar, that is about kind of curve you get running on stock turbo. Better get a boost controller to lower the boost unless you wanna upgrade turbo la. :mrgreen:

So, did you manage to get a hold of Yellowtaxi?
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby pistole » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:12 pm

- there aren't any fixed mileage for things like top-overhaul , full overhaul , etc.

- basically they're done when the engine is , eg , consuming too much oil , or there too much oil smoke from exhaust.

- and 1.56 bar is alot for a stock turbo.

.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:53 pm

Yes. 1.56bar is huge. Which is a big concern.

Had a good chat with yellowtaxi last night. It's confirmed that I'm running with a stock chip. Some things that I have to check in regards to the high boost is that it might be a rotten wastegate. As for the rich fueling, might have to replace the fuel pump to a stock one and see if there's an improvement. Also secure if there's any air leaks tricking the MAF.

Bedding in the Tarox now, so that's a good excuse to stay easy on the throttle while I sort it out.

Anyone have other suggestions on why she is behaving like that apart from what I've mentioned?

Thanks for all your input folks.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:28 pm

She's been bugged by a massive oil leak lately.

So at 279+++ km, she's gone in for a belt change and a rebuild.





:duh:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby UlysseNuovo » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:20 pm

ognam wrote:She's been bugged by a massive oil leak lately.

So at 279+++ km, she's gone in for a belt change and a rebuild.

:duh:


While you are at it, change forge piston too :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:41 pm

UlysseNuovo wrote:
ognam wrote:She's been bugged by a massive oil leak lately.

So at 279+++ km, she's gone in for a belt change and a rebuild.

:duh:


While you are at it, change forge piston too :mrgreen:


It's okay. Not that power hungry. Will leave the forged stuff to you 400bhp people. :D
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby UlysseNuovo » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:00 pm

Ah...That is what you want to believe but actually you are hungry for more. :twisted:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby raitag » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:57 am

ya la... since it's all opened up, forge pistons + forged rods la... don't hv to go to 400hp... go 500hp!
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:32 pm

I'd be happier with 400,000km as opposed to 400hp ;)
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby joe_yong » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:40 pm

ognam, so you waited another 29k km from 250k to get your timing belt changed?? :shock:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:16 am

joe_yong wrote:ognam, so you waited another 29k km from 250k to get your timing belt changed?? :shock:


Eh. No last belt change was around 24++++. Around the same time I started this thread.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby raitag » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:13 pm

after 4yrs and 8 months, my milage is now 119,xxxkm... by the time loan settled, it'll be 250,000km i think... :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby ognam » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:55 pm

raitag wrote:after 4yrs and 8 months, my milage is now 119,xxxkm... by the time loan settled, it'll be 250,000km i think... :mrgreen:


Better start collecting parts now. Some of the things I had issues (some I'm still) looking for are :

- Con rod bearings
- main bearings
- engine mount right side
- oil pump gasket

I've wiped out glory auto's supply of various sensors.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby UlysseNuovo » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:09 am

raitag wrote:after 4yrs and 8 months, my milage is now 119,xxxkm... by the time loan settled, it'll be 250,000km i think... :mrgreen:


See reliable what :thumbs:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby Reben1 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Pleas look at the dash in the picture, and notice the km,s he,s been driven 512.000km with the first engine its a 2.0L 16V , it,s not mine ;).i have 120,500km on my Coupé.
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby raitag » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:03 pm

wow... 512,000km....no major repair? mine's 119,000km... and she's only coming to 5 yrs old...

maybe next year can do a drive to Italy eh... :mrgreen:
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Re: Approaching the quarter million mark...

Postby joe_yong » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:14 pm

now, that's what we call a RECORD! =D> :italy:
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